The Expert Exchange Podcast: Designing Your Business Around Your Goals And Lifestyle

The Expert Exchange: Designing Your Business Around Your Lifestyle and Goals

Welcome to The Expert Exchange with your host Joshua Carnes and expert guest Laura Renner. Today's show is brought to you by Lion Business Advisors.

The content in this show is for informational purposes only. You should not construe any such information or other material as legal, tax, investment, financial, or other advice. The Expert Exchange is not a fiduciary by virtue of any person's use of or access to this content. The Expert Exchange is not licensed to practice law or provide legal advice. Nothing contained within this show is intended to be an offer to either buy or sell securities.

Joshua Carnes

Welcome to The Expert Exchange, the podcast where knowledge meets success. I'm your host Josh Carnes. Today, on the show, we are going to have expert guest Laura Renner, and we're going to be talking about designing a business around your goals and lifestyle. Laura is with Freedom Makers Virtual Services. You can find more about Laura and her team online at freedom-makers.com. That's freedom-makers.com.

At Lion Business Advisors, selling a business is not just a transaction. You've poured your heart and soul into your business. It's not just a paycheck. It's your legacy. The team at Lion Business Advisors is here to guide you through the process, ensuring your successful exit. Contact the team at Lion Business Advisors at 800-525-3542. That's 800-525-3542, or visit us at lionbusinessadvisors.com. Lion Business Advisors, let the story of your next chapter begin with us.

Joshua Carnes

Get ready to expand your horizons and refine your strategies as we dive into designing a business around your goals and lifestyles with expert guest Laura Renner. Laura is a member of the US Air Force Reserve. She graduated from the US Air Force Academy with a bachelor's in science in English and a minor in Chinese mandarin. She served as a public affairs officer before leaving the Air Force to earn international MBA from the University of Chicago Booth School of Business. Laura has also worked for nearly 20 years, dealing directly with people in foreign and public relations, education, and human resources. When Laura's not working to grow Freedom Makers, she very much enjoys traveling and having story-worthy adventures. Laura, welcome to the show.

Laura Renner

Thanks, Josh. Thanks for having me.

Joshua Carnes

Absolutely. Before we dive into today's topic on designing a business around your goals and your lifestyle, why don't you just tell us a little bit more about yourself and about Freedom Makers and what it is that you guys do over there?

Laura Renner

Sure. Freedom Makers, we help small business owners get things done with consistency by pairing them with a qualified military spouse as their remote team member. That really came out of what I wanted out of my lifestyle around being able to work flexibly and work from anywhere in the world, because I do like to travel. That's how I came up with the business around my lifestyle.

Joshua Carnes

No, that's awesome. When we were talking about having you on the show, and we hit all these topics, this one just jumped out to me, and I'm so excited that we could talk about it because I've been fortunate in my own business to… I tell people I got lucky. I have a lifestyle business. I have a business that has given me the lifestyle I want and allowed me to do all that, but I didn't do it on purpose. To know that there are people like you helping business owners do that on purpose is a great thing. That's why I was really excited to talk to you about that.

Let's dive into designing a business around your goals and lifestyle and what that actually means. Why is it important for a small business owner to design a business around the goals? Why is it important for them to be intentional with doing that?

Laura Renner

I think for one, it's important because we can. We do have that liberty, particularly as Americans, to be able to do what we want with our lives. But a lot of times people start a business because they want to get out of the corporate rat race or the trap that is a corporate job. But if you're not intentional, you run the risk of creating your business to be just another trap, just another J-O-B, and then you're just as miserable as you were before. Maybe even more miserable, because now you're responsible for your misery and for your income versus if you're miserable in a corporate job, you could slide for a few weeks and still get paid. But in a business, you can't do that. Then you just add to your own misery when you wasted an opportunity to really design how you want to do it.

 Joshua Carnes

There's a lot of business owners who started their business out of a talent, out of a passion, and they might not have those specific goals in mind yet. "Here's my talent, here's my passion, here's what I want to do," and they're diving in full force to a business. What are some of the goals that a business owner should look at when they're doing that talent-based or that passion-based business to move over to that lifestyle? What are some things they should consider?

 Laura Renner

I think that's great to think about. It could even be the types of clients you go for. But it could also be as simple as, "What's your workday?" I saw that when I was starting my business and a few of my friends were starting theirs, you feel this pressure that you're supposed to work 8:00-5:00. Maybe COVID helped reframe that a little bit, but you felt guilty if you weren't at your desk during a "typical workday".

Laura Renner

I remember someone asking me, "Do you go to the grocery store midday?" I was like, "I struggle with that." She had been in her business for a while, and she said, "Oh, no, I love it. I go get pedicures mid-afternoon because then there's no line and I can just enjoy it." I remember that really unlocked for me how much freedom we have in designing our goals. Especially when you're starting out with a talent or a passion, that's all you're focused on, which is great. But you can really take advantage of designing things like, What is your minimum income goal? How big do you want to be? Do you want to turn into running a business, or do you want to continue to hone your talent and your passion?

Laura Renner

Either answer is perfectly fine. Recognizing which one you want to do helps you determine what to do within your business. For example, if you want to grow your business to where you're running it, then you have to hire people who have that same talent and passion as you. If you want to stay focused on your talent and passion, then you have to hire people who can run the business or recognize these are the things that will always fall by the wayside, and I'm okay with that.

When you design it that way, then you can really be clear on what you need to focus on next, or again, designing your workday. Even, like I said, how you want to live, the type of clients that you are willing to take on, how many you want to take on, you can really design all of that by thinking through how you want to apply your talent and passion.

Joshua Carnes

It's been interesting because at Lion, at my company, when we're recruiting, I tell people, I go, "Look, this is a lifestyle business. You're going to get what you're going to make out of it." I give them the example of, I have three boys and single dad. For me, coaching my kids in youth football, that's our thing. That's what we do. When the fall comes around, I'm out of the office every day by 4:30. I'm the guy who goes and helps set up fields and does all of that. But I'm back in at nine o'clock working. But that's the lifestyle I've chosen. That's what I want out of it.

It is interesting when we're recruiting, we take that lifestyle approach into our new recruits, and we tell them, "Hey, look, it's a family-first. This is how we're going to run it. Go do what you need to do. Just make sure your clients are taken care of, and you can schedule your clients around what it is you need to do." But I love what you're talking about, setting goals with that because we didn't initially do that. It just happened, right?

 Laura Renner

Yeah. Can I ask you, on that journey, did you ever feel guilty about it? How did you embrace, "Hey, I am going to leave at 4:00 every day," and be okay with that and recognize that you get joy from that, too?
Joshua Carnes

No, 100%. Again, I think it comes down to creating a team. I got lucky that my two senior partners who do everything with me, I ran the plan by them and I said… This was probably four or five years ago when my oldest was getting into it, and I said, I go, "I think I'm going to coach him. Here's what I understand that I think that means. I'm gone through the afternoons for all of this." Both my senior partners said, "Yeah, we would expect nothing less." They're like, "We're going to be mad if you don't go do that now."

Laura Renner

That's awesome.

Joshua Carnes

But I think it comes back to recruiting people with the same passion as you. I recruited them to say, "Hey, this is my passion. This is my vision for a company." They were absolutely in line with that.

Laura Renner

I'll add, too, recognizing that you could do it, because you could have maybe never even considered it and said, "Oh, I wish I could coach my son's football, but I can't because I have to work." When really you could, you just hadn't unlocked that or someone potentially wouldn't have unlocked it. No, I can. Recognizing that you could and then pursuing it is a big win.

Joshua Carnes

Yeah, it was a huge win. Like I said, it's been four or five years now, and it's completely rolled into summer vacations, and doing all that with intention. "No, we're taking this time and this is what we're doing." It's been a blast.

Laura Renner

I know an attorney who is also very dedicated to her kids. Every spring break, she doesn't have any client meetings, and she's very clear to her clients that, "I am out. Not even checking my phone, I am out."

Joshua Carnes

I'm not that good yet, still checking work.

Laura Renner

But that was her commitment, and she owned it, and her clients have to accept it. If they don't, then she's not a fit for them, and that's okay, too.

Joshua Carnes

That's true. A lot of entrepreneurs—and I was in this boat—they start a business without a clear plan. For those business owners that already have an established business… When I said I got lucky, my team backed me, and we rolled right into it, and it worked. But for those business owners that are already working, their business is up and running, how can they really start to determine what their goals and priorities are and begin implementing those in their everyday business? What does that look like for them?

Laura Renner

I'll start by saying the pitfall that I commonly see is, "When I get to this, then I can do that." That's a risk because you may never get there. I always encourage people, start with now. It's never too late to change your goals or to change your mind. But start now. "What do I want now?" Start working toward that.

As an example, pre-COVID, I knew someone, a consultant, who wanted to be able to travel, but he met his clients on site, and he said, "Well, when I'm ready to travel, I will switch to meeting them virtually." I said, "No, you got to flip it. You got to start meeting with them virtually now. You have to make that your boundary so that you can travel." Or, "When I get big enough, I will let this client go." But that client's making you miserable now. Let them go now so that you can create space for the clients that will feed your joy and your passion. Then, therefore, you have the brain space to pursue everything else that you want to pursue.

That's one of the things is start with now. Take that time, figure out what do you want to do. Do you want to coach football? Do you want to take spring break with your kids? Whatever it is you want to do, and work toward that.

I always encourage people to use external boundaries to help you enforce it. Here's an example. It's a bit of a tangent, but I knew someone who had moved to a different state. Her clients were virtual. She kept her clients in her previous state, but then she was attending networking events in her new state to start to build her network there. But it seemed like that region liked to do their networking during happy hour. She drinks, and that's fine, but she's like, "I'm not trying to drink multiple times a week. I'm not trying to drink while I'm trying to do business. I'd rather meet someone for coffee or for lunch or something like that." She was telling me, "It seems like, though, that that's the culture here and how do I-"

Joshua Carnes

It's here in Austin, right?

Laura Renner

Yeah. "How do I still build relationships without having to do that?" I said, "If you had kids, would this even be a question? Because you have school pickup." She's like, "Absolutely not." I'm like, "So why is it a question now?" If you have to, use that as a way to help you reinforce your boundaries. Pretend you have kids. Be like, "No, I'm not available." You don't have to explain why. You're just not available. "I can meet you at 10:00 AM or at 12:00." But it's hard to say no when you don't have a reason to say no that's not external. That's what I said. Even in your mind, pretend you have kids, you have school pickup, so you can't meet them for happy hour. Then it makes it easier. Then over time, you get in the habit, and you're like, "No, I'd like to meet it. I'm available at 10:00 or 12:00 or something like that."

Laura Renner

That's an example of, when you have taken that time to think through what you want to do, but you aren't there yet, one technique is to use external constraints to prevent you from saying yes to something you don't want to do. If you're trying to go virtual, and you can meet a client locally, you can say, "Sorry, I'm not in your area that day," or something to help you enforce those boundaries until they become natural. But that's the key thing. Instead of waiting, instead of saying, "When I get to here, I can do this," say, "I want to do this now. How do I get there?" Then build those parameters in place to help you do that.

Joshua Carnes

I think that rolls into the next question we have. When the goals and priorities of the business owner's personal life don't really align with that of the business, what are some of the issues that you see like that, of not being able to say no or something like that? What are some of the challenges that those business owners face when their goals don't align with the business?

Laura Renner

I think it can be a couple of things. It might be fear that is a challenge, or it might be other things like, how do you change clients? I don't know. Part of me seems like it usually comes down to fear because changing clients and stuff like that can be difficult, right?

Joshua Carnes

Absolutely.

Laura Renner

But I think once you take that time to know what you want, you can work toward it, and then it's energizing to work. Even if you have to do it, like one new type of client a year or something like that, you're working toward it. I like to say, too, it's okay to just get started, even if you don't know for sure, but you know the direction you're trying to go.

Laura Renner

I once heard a coach say… Say, we wanted to get to LA from here, but we don't have a map. We don't have a GPS. We just know it's west of here. We just start going west. There's not going to be a sign for hundreds of miles, but there might be one every once in a while. LA this way. But as we get closer to LA, we start seeing more and more signs that we're going in the right direction. You just get started, and you just start going in that direction, knowing also that you can change directions. If you start accidentally going north, it's like, "Wait, that says Dallas. Let me turn left."

Joshua Carnes

That's huge. I think that's its own task in and of itself, is being established business owner and being able to change direction or change your goals. I think you hit that it is okay. But what does it look like if, here was my goal, and now I want to change that? What does that look like for a business owner?

Laura Renner

I'll go back to the challenges as well. But I remember once when I was… I think I was starting this business, maybe it was a business before, but I had become convinced that I wanted to do it alone. I didn't want any employees, I didn't want any contractors. I just wanted to be able to run a business that I could do by myself. I was very excited and very happy about it. I shared it with a mentor, and she said, "That's great, but don't lock yourself into it. You might change your mind." I was like, "Oh, okay, great." Sure enough, three years later, I had employees. I think a big part of what that looks like is being willing and being open to trying new things, recognizing that you can always backtrack, too.

I remember once, it was Freedom Makers. I felt like I could go in any number of directions. I was terrified that if I went in a direction, it would sink the business. I was frozen, I didn't know which way to go. I was using the example of I was on a rock that was sitting on a point. If I went one way, it would tip the whole rock over. A friend of mine said, "You're thinking steps 1 through 10 is step one, and that if you fail in that one step, you're going to sink the whole business. But really, you're going to get enough warning, enough lead time to know that you need to backtrack and go try a different step."

Joshua Carnes

That this isn't right.

Laura Renner

Exactly. I think that's part of it, is sometimes we get stuck in our heads that if I only take on this type of client, it will sink my business. Or if I only work till 4:00 PM, it will sink my business. But really, it won't. You just got to try it to see that it won't, or just have faith that you'll see that it's starting to impact you negatively and be able to backtrack. You'll have that time to be able to backtrack.

Laura Renner

Then I had a friend who was constantly—I don't want to say constantly—but all the advice she was given was about scaling and growing, and she just wasn't comfortable with it. But she would come up with, "Okay, I'm going to do this, this, and this, and that's going to set us up to grow." Then she would never complete it.

Laura Renner

Finally, she realized, "There's something in me that I'm not comfortable with." She just accepted it. She's like, "No, I'm going to stay the size that I am," and that was perfectly fine for her, for her business, and for her clients. That was absolutely okay. So she tried it a few times, and she's like, "I'm good with where I'm at." That's another example of being willing to change direction and trying a few things and recognizing that that's okay, and it's not going to tank your business if it doesn't work out.

Then going back to the challenges, I think ultimately it comes down to that risk that I mentioned at the top around it becoming another J-O-B. If your own mental health, your family, connections… Using you as an example, if you weren't able to coach, would you be as close to your sons as you are? For the sake of what? For the sake of more money? Because you have enough with your business. It's for what cost? Then the impact of that on your own mental health and your physical health and just joy, because if you're waking up every day not wanting to go work in your own business-

Joshua Carnes

That's rough.

 Laura Renner

Right? That's rough. So I think that's some of the challenges of not designing your business around your goals and your lifestyle, is that it designs you, which then is not fun and not healthy.

Joshua Carnes

One of the things in those challenges… I know one of the biggest challenges that I faced as a business owner is when I was going to start hiring, and could I afford an admin? And what would that look like? Looking back, hiring an admin or an executive assistant, whatever you want to call that person, was one of the best decisions I ever made in my life. I look back now, I wish I would have hired her a year prior.

Joshua Carnes

Not to completely roll on your business here, but that's what you do, right? As the owner of a virtual assistant agency, how have you observed clients making that transition and benefiting from realigning their business with their lifestyle goals? What kind of role does Freedom Makers play in that transition?

Laura Renner

Yeah, I've seen clients come to us. I think one of the common definitions of small business owners is we're all control freaks.

Joshua Carnes

Yeah, slightly.

Laura Renner

When business owners come to us is when they're ready, they're tired of doing it all themselves, and they're ready for that support. Like you said, they're ready to let go of some of the things, but they still might be nervous about it, but they're ready to at least explore it. Then they hire us. And where we differ from other agencies is we tend to become sort of the right-hand person of the business owner doing a little bit of everything. A lot of our people are sort of renaissance people at the small business level.

Laura Renner

You see it click where they're just so happy. Either because they now don't have to do the things they don't want to do, but their business is still growing. Or they have more time in the day that they're able to get through everything that they could, so they're able to better serve their clients or spend more time with their family. You just see them, either way they're happier, they're achieving growth objectives or balance objectives. That's neat to see when they do that.

Joshua Carnes

Perfect. We're talking a lot about designing a business around your goals and lifestyle, right? You have your own business, right? Freedom Makers is yours. How have you taken those steps to design Freedom Makers Virtual Services in a way that supports your goals and your lifestyle?

Laura Renner

Right from the start it needed to be completely virtual so that I could travel. But then it worked out perfectly because that was also in line with the mission of the company. In fact, when we have clients say, "Oh, I get that it's virtual, but do you have anyone local? They could come to the office once a week or something?" We always say, "Even if we did, the risk of that is once the military moves them-"

Joshua Carnes

They're gone.

Laura Renner

"-they're gone." So you've lost a team member and they've lost a work opportunity. It helped us to stay committed to, we're completely virtual, all of us, from the beginning.

Joshua Carnes

I like that.

Laura Renner

We have our internal team that runs the company and the Freedom Makers that support our clients. And the internal team we have-

Joshua Carnes

Is that what you call them? You call them the Freedom Makers?

Laura Renner

Yeah.

Joshua Carnes

I love that. That's great.

Laura Renner

The internal team, we have people in all four contiguous US time zones, so it's also become important for us to be able to work asynchronously. Yes, we have meetings, and it is hard to schedule meetings because of that, but we also recognize some people work at 10 at night, some people work at five in the morning, and we're okay with that.

Laura Renner

It all started with me wanting to be able to travel, to have a business that could do that by being completely virtual. Then it just took on this theme of freedom, so everything… That's now a guiding principle for us. Everything we do to support our clients and to support our Freedom Makers is around what provides as much flexibility as possible for our clients and for our Freedom Makers.

Laura Renner

But it was one of those things too, where I didn't necessarily have a goal for how big I wanted to be or what I wanted to look like when I started. It was more, it had to be flexible. I started it in April, June we had our first client. The second year we had a lot of growth, but we also had twice as much time. There was that growth. Then the third year we grew by 10%. And I realized it was me, that I was holding us back, because, ironically, for having started an admin company, I really stink at admin.

Laura Renner

The parts around matching Freedom Makers to clients. The skills part I was fine at. It was the scheduling that I was always dropping the ball on. That's when I was like, "You know what? I think I need to hire some people." That's when we took off.

Laura Renner

For me, what I've learned, or how I've designed it is around, how do I work? But also slowly letting go of the things I'm not good at. Recognizing I'm not good at them and then letting them go has been a big part of, I think, the company's growth, because I'm not the bottleneck. Or when I am the bottleneck, I try and-

Joshua Carnes

The team will help you?

Laura Renner

Yes.

Joshua Carnes

Just being a business owner, it's a huge piece of knowing, "Here's what I'm great at. Here's what I'm not. Let's go find someone to help where I'm not great to make the overall company great."

Laura Renner

Exactly.

Joshua Carnes

It's great that you've been able to do that.

Laura Renner

I remember a coach said, "The fastest way to self growth is start a business."

Joshua Carnes

You learn a lot there.

Laura Renner

Exactly. If you're willing to, right? Because if you're still trying to force yourself into what you think society thinks, like working 9-5, or taking on any client, those types of things that make you miserable, then you don't learn anything.

Joshua Carnes

You talked about the company growing and how a few years ago you made a shift and started hiring people. Did your goals and personal objectives change as the company went on? Have they always been the same? What did that look like?

Laura Renner

I don't normally say this out loud, but part of my original vision was to sit on the beach drinking mai tais. I don't actually drink mai tais, but anyway.

Joshua Carnes

But that vision of being there.

Laura Renner

Right. Pretty quick, I think with our first client, I realized that we couldn't just match and say, "Be happy." There was follow-up customer service that was needed. Recognizing that then has also shifted how we serve our clients and our Freedom Makers. Then also shifted who we hired, basically what roles we created in the company. But I think for me, too where personally my goals have shifted is I've realized how much I enjoy investing in our culture and in our professional development, which I did not anticipate when I started the company. Now we focus a lot on that.

Laura Renner

Sometimes when I think about other businesses, I'm like, "I don't know if I could invest this much energy in another business around culture and leadership development and things like that." I have become more involved than I initially envisioned because those things matter a lot to me, and I didn't realize they mattered to me until I started having a team.

Joshua Carnes

The people matter.

Laura Renner

Yes. When you say it like that, maybe I did realize that, but I don't know how much I anticipated investing in that, because I've always believed that people help the bottom line. It frustrates me when corporations, their focus is profits over people. I firmly believe if you invest in people, you'll see the profits from them.

Joshua Carnes

A hundred percent.

Laura Renner

Right. Seeing that in action, though, requires more energy investment than I anticipated.

Joshua Carnes

Speaking of something like that, I know a lot of small business owners, they sometimes struggle with the tension between what they think they should achieve versus what they truly desire. I think you talked about that. But how do you recommend reconciling these conflict notions with small business owners between where they think they should be and what they truly desire?

Laura Renner

I think partly it goes back to trying it in little doses till you're comfortable with it. Like go to the grocery store midday and see that your business-

Joshua Carnes

See if the company implodes?

Laura Renner

Exactly. I remember, too, another example is when I was getting Freedom Makers going, I was dog sitting and dog walking for income, and I was out in California at the time. When you're spending a few hours every day out in the California sunshine, it's really nice, right?

Joshua Carnes

Yeah.

Laura Renner

I remember saying to a friend of mine, confiding in her, that I was torn because I really enjoyed it, so much so that I wanted to do it all the time, but I felt like that wasn't acceptable for someone with my education. She was a classmate of mine from school, and I said, "I feel like this is not okay." She looked at me without flinching, without hesitating, she said, "Are you happy?" I said, "Yeah." She goes, "Then what does it matter?" Right then, it was very liberating to just let go of what you think society expects of you because you're happy. You're happy, you're able to take care of your bills or your family, or whatever obligations you have that you have accepted, right?

Laura Renner

Then you don't worry about anything else. That was really, like I said, liberating for me. Part of that is, again, thinking through what do you actually want and being okay with that.

Laura Renner

If you do want a big house, go for it. If you want a nice car, go for it. If you want to be able to travel full-time or whatever it is, go for it and be okay with that. So I think that's part of it is really exploring what makes you happy and then relentlessly pursuing it without concern for what others think of you or what they'll say about it. And that's harder. It's easier said than done.

Joshua Carnes

Absolutely.

Laura Renner

But as you get more used to it, I think it becomes a little bit easier. Like I said, going to the grocery store becomes a little bit easier because your company hasn't imploded and just setting up. I think with me, what I try to do with my employees is, if I'm not as available as they need me to be, making sure they're okay telling me that. Because that's my fear. If I'm always off doing other things, am I not available for them? So setting that environment where it's okay for them to say, "Hey, I need you here," then I don't have to worry about it if I'm off doing something else.

Joshua Carnes

One of the things that isn't on the list, but you've hit on it a couple of times, and I think it's real important is having someone in your life that you can bounce this stuff off of that isn't in your everyday day-to-day business. You hit on a couple of times how you were at a crossroads, and you went and talked to someone, and they said this. It's pretty funny because my company Lion wouldn't be here today if I didn't have a mentor who said, "Josh, I think you're going in the wrong direction." It's funny.

Joshua Carnes

My company, I had a full business plan to go a completely another direction. I sat down with my mentor, and he just goes, "That will make you miserable. Have you thought about that?" It was like, "Oh, that probably will." I was totally doing a business plan solely based on money and the pursuit of money, and luckily, my business mentor just laughed, and he was like, "That's not you. I'd like to introduce you to someone who does this." I think for those entrepreneurs out there, it's really important to find someone in your life who will give you an honest feedback of, "Are you happy? Is everything getting taken care of? Then this is okay." Or the opposite.

Laura Renner

Yeah, and I'll add who you're willing to hear. I found-

Joshua Carnes

That's important.

Laura Renner

Yes. I do have mentors. I do ask a lot of people. One of the things I've learned about myself is I tend to process out loud. When I'm stuck, I just start talking to everybody about what I'm struggling with or what I'm thinking about. But I also realized I had a couple, I guess they're vendors, but service providers, like bookkeepers, attorneys, that type of thing, where whenever they spoke, I'm like, "No, I'm not going to do that." Then it became a criteria that anyone I hired as a service provider, I had to be willing to listen to.

Joshua Carnes

Interesting.

Laura Renner

Yes. If they provide insight that I'm like, "No, I'm not doing that," or it makes me very nervous or uncomfortable, then I'm like, "You're not the right one for me."

Joshua Carnes

"You're not even a fit."

Laura Renner

Right, exactly. I've had service providers and mentors who tell me things that I'm not comfortable or ready to do, but because I trust them, and I'm willing to hear it, I'll do that. One example is raising prices. People would tell me I needed to raise my prices, and I absolutely was like, "No, no way." Then my accountant, who I trusted, said it, and I was like, "Okay." And I went and did it. I would add right to your point, people who are willing to say something to you, but also who you're willing to hear-

Joshua Carnes

That's huge.

Laura Renner

-is a big part of it, too.

Joshua Carnes

Yeah. What advice would you give those entrepreneurs who—you kind of just hit on this—feel uncertain about what they want their lifestyle to be? How can they start the process of designing a business around their goals, and around what they want?

Laura Renner

I think starting somewhere, taking some time. I feel like I completely understand this. I like to joke I'm a Gemini. I change my mind all the time. Figuring out one, ways to know if you're really interested in something and you really want it. Like, maybe you want to be completely virtual, but then you recognize that you're not that productive when you're completely virtual. So taking time to explore things that you think you want and figuring out how to understand if you do want that.

Laura Renner

For me, when I was getting my business going, I learned that I'm someone who has a new idea every week kind of thing, but that if I gave it about three weeks and I talked to maybe a handful of people, I would know if I was actually interested in the idea. That became a rule that anytime I had a new idea. I had to wait three weeks before I could actually pursue it and maybe talk to a handful of people. Usually I would just get bored with it and move on. I did that with Freedom Makers. I gave it three weeks. I talked to a handful of people, and I was like, "No, I'm still interested."

Joshua Carnes

I like this one.

Laura Renner

There's that piece. The other piece for me that I've learned is I've really learned how to listen to my body. If I don't want to do something, I will not do it, and my body will tell me that. It's just like, just how much I dread it, how much I drag my feet, and even, I don't know, it feels physical. Like I don't want to do this. It's not mental or emotional. It's like my body's fighting me on it kind of thing, and just having recognized that that's what's happening and not forcing myself.

Laura Renner

Then I'm like, "I don't want to do it. I'm not going to do it." Either we're just not going to pursue it, or I need to find someone else to do it. But those took me a long time to learn. Even growing up, it was a rule. You had to have perfect attendance, so I didn't know when I was too sick to work.

Laura Renner

When I was in the Air Force and I had a corporate job, my supervisors had to tell me when to go home or when to go to the doctor. They actually ordered me when I was in the Air Force to go to the doctor. My supervisor in my corporate job was like, "You need to go home." It wasn't until I started my business that I had to figure out for myself when I was too sick to work. In fact, I actually had an employee who was like, "You might need to go to the doctor." It turned out I had strep.

Anyway, over the years, I've learned to listen to my body, to recognize when I'm too tired, when I'm too sick, or when I just plain flat out don't want to do something. And accepting that if I don't want to do it, I'm not going to do it. I think that's part of it, is taking that time to understand what motivates you, how to recognize those signs about what you really are interested in, and then taking that time and really decide how you're going to explore those.

For example, if you think you want to go virtual, maybe start one day a week or something like that, to explore if that really is a fit for you. Or if you dive all in, that's okay, too. You can go back to meeting in person, that type of thing, what works for you. Or even figuring out if you want to have someone else do something.

Start small, test it out. If it works, add more; if it doesn't, toss it. To your point, talk to your mentors, even hire professional guidance as well. Figuring out… That made me think of another example where I used to say, I should start saying it some more again but, there are two types of business owners. There's the executors and there's the big-picture people. If you're a big-picture person, you got to hire executors. Otherwise, you're just going to talk about all day and never get anything done. If you're an executor, you get a lot of stuff done, but you're not going in a direction. What's that called? You're rudderless.

Joshua Carnes

Just doing the busy work.

Laura Renner

Exactly. You're getting a lot done, but are you moving anywhere? If you're a big picture person, you got to hire an executor. If you're an executor, you got to hire a big picture person. That might be a CEO, it might be a coach or a consultant. Or if you're hiring executors, it's people who will actually get the work done kind of thing.

Laura Renner

So my Ops manager, I hired her because I knew she would do-

Joshua Carnes

She's the executor. She's getting it done.

Laura Renner

Exactly. If you take that time or if you hire professional help to help you figure that out about yourself, then that's great, too. Then that can help you start to evaluate what do you want out of your business? What do you want out of your life? Talk to your family members. Talk to your friends. They can tell you what you enjoy and what you don't enjoy, too. Then use that to start to identify what you want to experiment with in the design of your goals and your lifestyle in your business.

Joshua Carnes

We've done that. Even with our company, we found that we're the perfect hybrid of… We have an office space, and someone was laughing at me the other day. They're like, "Josh, it's been three months since you've actually been in the office." I was like, "Oh, that's right, we have one. I should go in, right?" Then there's other times where it's like, I've been in there for two weeks straight and some of our team use that hybrid flex space and some of the people just never come in, but we're all working. I tell people the post-COVID economy has really opened that up for what works, what actually works for you as an individual and the company, and find that in-between, and so it's been great.

Laura Renner

Also what might work temporarily, too, to your point, around the hybrid. I remember, I went through a phase where I was just not productive at home. I had no desire to work, and so I got a co-working membership, and it wasn't that I needed… I didn't talk to anyone while I was there. Just being in a working environment inspired me-

Joshua Carnes

Getting out.

Laura Renner

Yeah, exactly. To work. And I forget why. It was before COVID. I can't remember what caused me to stop going in, but it was a positive thing. I didn't need it anymore. But I remember I would go there, and just free coffee, and just being around other people working got me to work.

Joshua Carnes

Get in the office.

Laura Renner

Exactly.

Joshua Carnes

What other insights or advice do you have for small business owners who are really looking to create that model that suits their unique goals or lifestyle? What kind of leading advice could you give with that?

Laura Renner

I think really take that time to explore what's important. Do you want more time with family? Do you want more time to travel? Do you want to only work with a certain kind of client? It reminds me of… We had a client for a while who was an attorney. She was a family law attorney. She said, "But I only work with clients who are putting families together." I just thought-

Joshua Carnes

I've never heard of one of those.

Laura Renner

I was like, "What does that mean?" She talked about adoption.

Joshua Carnes

Okay.

Laura Renner

Maybe a unique type of cohabitation from the traditional marriage type thing. That type of thing where you are bringing families together or if it's like a straight-up adoption, or if it's like one parent adopting the other parent's child, that kind of thing. But she's like, "I don't do divorces. I don't do that type of stuff. I'm bringing families together." I had never heard a family law attorney specify. That always stuck to me because I thought, one, how cool is that-

Joshua Carnes

That's huge.

Laura Renner

-that she recognized it and designed her business around that. Two, that to be able to do something where you just got to focus on the positive sides of family law. You could spin that either way.

Joshua Carnes

Well, of any business.

Laura Renner

Exactly.

Joshua Carnes

I'm going to focus on the positive of my industry.

Laura Renner

Right.

Joshua Carnes

That's huge.

Laura Renner

A final advice type thing is recognize the power you have in designing your business around your goals and your lifestyle. You don't have to take any client just because they're paying. Maybe when you're just getting started, but not really. And recognizing that gives you a lot of power. Like you said, I'm only going to work till four during the fall, or I'm not going to do happy hour networking, or I'll do it once a month or something.

You have the power to decide how you're going to run your business, how it's going to integrate into your life. I think that is monumental. When you recognize that, it becomes a lot easier to decide what your goals are and how you're going to integrate them. Recognizing it is really hard or accepting it is really hard.

Joshua Carnes

This has been a really beneficial conversation for me. Hopefully it's been that way for everyone else. If someone wants to learn more about Freedom Makers Virtual Services and reach out to you guys, it's two-fold question, one, how do they get a hold of you? We'll close with that. But two, I don't think we really hit on it, and I would like to highlight a little bit if it's okay with you.

You hit on what Freedom Makers is. It's not just virtual services, right? That's the core and that's the service you're providing, but you're putting those spouses of military people to work while they're at home. For those who don't know the industry, like you said, they can be moved around at any moment. It's a, "You're moving next week, here you go," sometimes even closer. Putting them in a situation where they can earn that extra income—and that is huge for those families—I think is an amazing passion project. I don't even know if it's your passion project, but it's an amazing passion project to have. Could you hit a little bit more on what you're doing in that space and then how people can find out about you?

 Laura Renner

Sure. Yeah. Thanks for… I know I don't talk about it enough. I was originally doing recruiting for small business owners, and I was meeting a lot of small business owners who weren't ready to hire. Either because they were solopreneurs with not necessarily consistent or predictable revenue, or they just weren't sure if they had enough work for an employee. Then, of course, the compliance side. They were a little bit nervous around having the responsibility of an employee, but they still needed help. Then meanwhile-

Joshua Carnes

A lot of businesses like that.

Laura Renner

Yeah. Meanwhile, I come from a military family. I was in the military. My brother is still active duty. And so I saw my mom go through it. I saw my coworkers' spouses go through it, and I see my own sister-in-law. Every time they move, she has to look for new work. Depending on where they move, there may or may not be those type of career-type roles available in that local economy.

When I was thinking about it, they were getting ready to move, and they were actually moving internationally. I said, "What are you going to do for work?" I'm like, "Man, I have asked her that like three times already in the 10 years they've been married," so something clicked for me. I'm like, "Man, there is this untapped source of talent and this unmet need on the business owner-side or the small business-side."

When I think about military spouses, regardless of education, regardless of work experience, every one of them that I've met are for sure good at two things: research and organization. Because when you only have a week's notice to move, and you're going somewhere you don't know, and you've got to find a house that has good schools, you got to take care of the move yourself because your spouse is gone. Every single one of them, they're all organized, and they know how to research. What do small business owners need? Organization and research.

You're not buying the big data analytics that the big companies are buying. You need someone who can Google, "I need businesses in this zip code," or something like that. That's what they can do. The other thing is they all tend to be renaissance people who are just good. They can do a little bit of everything. What do small business owners need? Someone who can do a little bit of everything. I definitely did not know that or appreciate that when I started. I just knew there was this untapped source of talent, but that seems to be our sweet spot.

We tend to thrive with the solopreneur small team businesses who need renaissance people, and then we tend to thrive with spouses who like to do a little bit of everything and like that flexibility, because that's what we focus on, too. We don't assign clients to them. They get to choose the clients they want to be considered for based on their availability and the kind of work. And we don't have minimum hour commitment from the client side. So it's all about flexibility. That came from how I like to work. But also knowing what the needs of the clients were and what the needs of spouses are. That's a little bit about us.

Joshua Carnes

I think it's amazing once I heard that… I think it's truly amazing what you're doing there. My family has been around, military family. I was a military brat myself and grew up in that, and the moving and the transition that just goes on there. Having that extra resource for them is amazing. It's always been a passion of ours to give back to the military, so I love that your whole business is just giving back to them. That's great. For those small business owners out there that are considering virtual services and want to give back, how do they get a hold of you guys? What does that look like?

Laura Renner

They can go to our website freedom-makers.com, and there's a way they can book a call with us. We call it a task audit for ones who aren't sure what they can delegate. They can just click through that, and it gives them some ideas of, "Oh, I don't want to do sales, or I don't want to do finance." They click on it, and it gives them sample tasks. Then they can go through and say, "Only I can do this, I want to let go of this," or it could go either way. Then that gives them a template for what they can let go of. But it all starts with they can just book a call with us through the website.

Joshua Carnes

Perfect. Well, Laura, thank you so much for coming on today. Again, I think this has been a great conversation. If you've enjoyed what you've heard today, you can always find us or connect with us on Twitter/X at The Expert Exchange, @TheExpExchange, or online on our website where this will be live, expertexchange.pro. That's expertexchange.pro.

Joshua Carnes

If you would like to have more information or find resources on today's show from our expert guest, again, you can reach out to Laura and her team at freedom-makers.com. Again, that's freedom-makers.com. Remember, success is a journey, and we're so glad to be a part of yours. We'll see you on the next episode of The Expert Exchange.

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